From Idea to Intellectual Property – Season 2 Episode 3: A woollen kayak? Crazy ideas saving the planet

Fundamentally, the biggest misconception in invention is that someone goes away, they have an idea, maybe in the shower, and, wow, Eureka, I have an invention, it’s gonna be amazing.

Oh, I’m a millionaire overnight, great.

Well, actually, no, it’s not like that at all.

In effect, what you’re doing is you’re identifying a problem that people deeply care about.

You’re producing hundreds, if not thousands, of different solutions, and through blood, sweat and tears, and many hours, you are testing these solutions until you iterate and find the perfect one.

And it just so happens that that very process is the same as the patent process.

So that’s Logan Williams.

He’s a prolific inventor, from Polaroid contact lenses to treat epilepsy, to a medical nebulizer to vaporize liquid medication.

Currently, he’s the managing director of Shear Edge, solving a different kind of problem.

Hello, I’m Lisa Leong and welcome to season two of From Idea to Intellectual Property.

So Logan, what’s the problem you’re seeking to solve in relation to wool fibers?

So there’s two key problems.

One is the industry.

So ever since 1987, in DuPont invented nylon fabric, the price of wool has pretty much bottomed out to the point where it costs more to shear the sheep than you actually get for the wool, which has been really, really devastating for farmers across Australia and New Zealand and around the world.

And the second problem is an industry problem with plastics, which is at the moment to enforce or reinforce plastics is to add fiberglass.

And fiberglass, if you’ve ever put pink bats in a house, as you well know, is a horrible, horrible substance, itchy, terrible to deal with and makes the product virtually unrecyclable.

And we’re not talking about merino wool here, are we?

Yeah, so in effect, there’s two distinctions in the wool market.

One is fine wool, which is the likes of merino, which is about 5%, so it’s ultra fine.

It’s really high value.

It’s like the T-shirt I’m wearing, it’s luxury suits.

And the other type of wool is strong wool or coarse wool.

And if you imagine your grandma’s sweater, which is really itchy, hard against your skin.

And of course people don’t like it because it’s so rough against skin.

So typically it’s an upholstery carpet.

And in many cases, it’s just a waste product and can be literally thrown into landfill after shearing.

And so what was your hypothesis around what you might do to solve with these two problems?

Well, the first thing that was really apparent in this industry is the massive volume of material.

We’re talking about thousands and thousands of tons of strong wool produced in New Zealand and Australia each year.

Just to put that into perspective, it’s about six football fields for a wool store, just storing wool.

So immediately we knew that we had to generate a solution that was gonna shift the volume and actually turn the dial and generate more value for strong wool.

The only industry that can harness or utilize that amount of material was plastics.

So immediately we thought we need to deploy an invention or come up with a solution specifically in that field that can generate more value for farmers.

So Logan, tell me about the woollen kayak.

What makes it unique?

Yeah, so after many years of R&D and hard work and blood, sweat and tears and not sure whether it was gonna work or not, we kept pitching to customers and they’d say, oh, we don’t believe in the product.

We don’t believe the material will work.

Pretty much, no, go away.

We don’t wanna hear about it.

They were worried that it was gonna degrade the product, that it was gonna fail.

And really we took a step back and we said, well, what’s the product, a hero product that we can create that just stops all the haters?

We can launch it to market.

Everyone’s gonna go wild and crazy and we’ll blow people’s minds.

And I thought kayak, so we brodo molded the world’s first well and kayak with Torpedo 7, a retailer in New Zealand.

And our material makes the kayaks way lighter.

So about 15% lighter, stiffer, which is really important for kayaks, higher tensile strength and higher impact strength.

So that means that you’ve got a more versatile, amazing kayak with a beautiful natural New Zealand story and connection to the land through the New Zealand wall we’re using in every kayak.

In fact, it actually replaces a lot of the plastic that would normally be involved in the process.

Is that right?

Yeah, yeah.

So it’s really hard to communicate because if you take one kg of wall, it’s like this much and one kg of plastics is like this much.

So we talk on a volume basis.

So as in how much of the boat is made out of it.

So it’s 40% of the volume of the boat is made with wool.

We’ve tried loading more wool into products, but if we end up permeating the outer structure of the kayak, it can actually lead to the boat fracturing, breaking or degrading over time.

And it’s a highly regulated industry.

So we have to be incredibly certain that we meet the specifications for that product.

I was reading that having that amount of natural wool fiber embedded in the polyethylene actually replaces about two kilograms of plastic equivalent to 400 plastic bags.

Yes, yeah, exactly.

So on a weight to weight basis, it’s about 10%.

So we’re reducing two kg, hence why it’s lighter.

And that is a lot of plastic bags.

Yeah, so we’re doing about 50 different products, everything from a catamaran to a kayak and a knife.

And we’re actively trying to reduce as much plastic and fiberglass that is humanly possible.

And at what point when you were innovating, as you say, there was years and years of R&D.

Did you know you had a breakthrough?

I literally started this invention with a company called New Zealand Merino.

And I started in a 20 foot shipping container with an electric frying pan, a toasty machine and a wood chipper.

I was literally mixing wool with polylactic acid, making it into sheets, wood chipping it up and then begging manufacturers to try it.

After being pretty much told to piss off a thousand times, one company took a leap of faith and said that they would try it.

We produced the world’s first midic alert bracelet, so a woollen midic alert bracelet, just to trial the machine.

And it was at that moment that I knew that we had something that was patentable, defendable and truly novel.

So what happens when you’ve hit upon an invention that you think is patentable, defendable and truly novel?

You go to a patent attorney.

I’m Hannah French.

I am a principal at AJ Park.

Hannah actually worked with Logan Williams to turn his big idea into big business.

I thought it sounded really interesting and exciting.

Logan’s a really, really passionate person.

I think he could make anything sound exciting.

I could certainly see right from early on that there were some really thorny problems in there that he’d been able to overcome.

And I think that was a really key, key part of the technology.

And that’s often something as patent attorneys that we’re looking for.

And that can be something that can really give you a good indication that something’s gonna be a patentable invention if there’s been significant hurdles overcome.

So Hannah, from a patent attorney’s perspective, when is the best time to receive a call from an inventor?

You want it to be early in the process.

So it’s really important that any patent application is filed before there’s any public disclosure of the invention.

And this can often happen when people go and talk to potential investors or go public with their invention in some way.

So get their media involved or post things on their website.

So it’s really important that inventors, even if they are only at the point of considering whether to file a patent application, come and get some advice from a patent attorney before you make any sort of public disclosure.

Okay, let’s go back to our inventor, Logan.

So Logan, how did you know that your invention was patentable?

I’ve developed and sold three companies before.

So I was no stranger to this process of patenting an intellectual property.

In fact, I’d worked with AJ Park before on a previous invention.

So I already had a knowledge of the team at AJ Park in New Zealand.

I already knew the patenting process.

So I guess there’s a few critical things that need to occur for a patent.

One is non-obviousness, which is, it can’t be like, you can’t just a layman off the street couldn’t just look at this and produce it.

The next is, is it actually distinguishable to prior art?

So has anyone invented or developed something of similar nature in history or in the past, either in theory or practically?

Then of course, the third one, which is also incredibly important, is actually breaking down the components of a patent.

Now I’m not a patent lawyer, but fundamentally there are independent claims, independent claims, independent claims, independent being the core foundational premises of your patent and dependent claims, kind of the range underneath that independent claim of what it could be.

So for us, one of the independent claims is the composition.

So it’s the ratio of wool to polymer, be it biodegradable polymers, synthetic polymers.

And as dependent claims, we’ve listed all the different polymers, we’ve trialed and tested to prove that it is functional.

And another independent claim we have is the specific end-to-end manufacturing process.

And the dependent claims from that would be iterations within that manufacturing process.

So ranges, ways we can dial heat, dial torque, dial the output of the machine, dial the palletiser in order to produce the material.

How do you decide when to start looking at that pattern process and calling in your pattern attorney, Logan?

I think the earlier, the better, really.

You certainly need to distinguish that you actually have something that is patentable, and usually that is a free, friendly conversation with your patent lawyer.

Once that’s established, you want to get the process underway because you can actually, in effect, create prior art for yourself.

If you create an invention, go out and sell a single product, one product, it is out in the market, it is public information.

You will therefore, if you haven’t started the patent process, may struggle to get a patent because everyone, it is obvious now, because everyone has seen it, they may have broken it down, reverse-engineered it and worked out how it was made.

So you can actually cannibalise yourself.

Yes, in the future can, definitely.

It’s ironic, I know, but that definitely is the case.

But it kind of does make sense.

If you launch a product and your competitor immediately buys that product and can understand the inner workings of it and has already deployed it in their factory and is underway, I don’t understand how you would expect to get a patent anyway.

Let’s go back to Hannah.

Unfortunately, inventor’s self-cannibalising happens a lot.

Here’s what our patent attorney, Dr.

Hannah French had to say.

Any disclosure of your invention to others risks potentially invalidating a future patent application or at the very least limiting your patenting options.

And it’s not only selling your product or demonstrating your invention in public that can be a problem.

Even merely having a discussion with a potential customer where you offer to sell them your product can be problematic.

Unfortunately, it’s a fairly common occurrence.

An example can be perhaps in the academic field where you might have a student who presents a poster at a conference, for example.

You know, that can be a public disclosure.

So that would be an example that can happen regularly.

And then I guess the other thing is, would be that example of businesses or inventors who start exploring the marketing potential or the markets for their invention by talking to potential customers.

And so if you believe you have a patentable invention and you’re interested in obtaining a patent application, it’s crucial to talk to a patent attorney before you start telling anyone about your invention or otherwise demonstrating it or making it public.

So what’s your big tips for inventors looking to keep their inventions top secret?

First of all, you want to keep the group of people who know about it as small as possible.

So get as few people involved as possible.

And the second thing is with those third parties who you need to be involved to help you test your prototype, you want to have an agreement in place so that they keep the information about the invention confidential.

And then the third thing was with that party, provide them with the smallest amount of information that you can that’s required for them to do the testing that you need them to do.

So it’s critical to keep your team really small and close when working on an invention to avoid any leaks.

As a general rule, I guess you want to make sure that everyone who’s involved with developing the technology is aware that they need to keep it secret and keep it to themselves.

So I think that sort of awareness of that requirement is important.

If everyone who is involved in developing the technology knows that they shouldn’t tell anyone about it, then they’re not gonna post something on social media.

So I would say that’s an important element for inventors to consider.

Logan, how do you manage the tension of the secrecy required by the process with the very public nature of a patent once it’s out in the world?

I think one of the biggest shortcomings of the patent industry is the academic nature of it.

I’m an unabashed filthy capitalist.

I’m here to make money.

The best sustainable solutions are ones that make money.

So in effect, I think in my opinion, get the patent underway as soon as possible.

Once you have a defendable position, go to market with the confidence that your legal team behind you is gonna make it happen.

And then yeah, you’re in a far better position than just either going with no patent at all, or in effect, waiting three, four years and the market’s already moved on and no one cares about your product anymore.

And so the patent that you’re talking about in terms of say something like the Woollen kayak, there’s something underpinning it.

So it’s not actually the Woollen kayak itself, but it’s the system that you created to create the plastic making a kayak.

Yeah, we like to call ourselves the Intel.

So like the operating system within the technology.

See, we could go and we could identify knives as a separate industry and create a patent or kayaks or et cetera, any of our products, but you’re going to be spending an immense amount of money and time doing that.

What we were far better to do was identify the core patent underpinning our technology, which was the manufacturing process, the material itself, patent that, and then all the products that proliferate from that are covered under that patent.

Did you have to specify all the different categories of uses then?

Yes, we gave a range as a dependent claim, like the applications.

And I think importantly, in a patent, it’s not a theoretical exercise.

You need to give demonstratable examples of the product being made, whether it’s product images, 3D CAD renderings, whatever that nature looks like, or even testing results of the material.

You have to funnel in that evidence to substantiate the patent itself.

Now you mentioned knives and you just pulled a knife on me.

Show me that big knife and describe it, please.

Yeah, so this is by far our best selling product.

We’ve sold about four and a half thousand knives in a year.

And of course, the blade is made of steel because the best knives are made with steel.

But our handle is made with our wool polymer technology.

So this one that we have here is made with polylactic acid, which is derived from cornstarch and wool.

The handle is beautiful.

It’s actually clear polymer.

So the white you see is from the wool.

And if you went to my kitchen at my house, I look like a psychopath because I have magnetic bars all over my kitchen with just all the different knives that we sell.

So yeah, I always make my enemies a bit nervous when I invite them over for dinner.

Yes, of course I’ll invest in your knives, Logan.

Of course I will.

Now, Logan, what does the woollen handle polymer knife offer that other knives don’t?

Yeah, so fundamentally there is the technical element, which is less so important in a knife, but of course it can’t break down and needs to be robust.

It needs to be, well, ideally lighter, like it’s a great handle.

We have this effect where our polymer expands more on the mold, so you get more of a rounded handle, which is quite ergonomic and comfortable.

But for certain, for absolute certain, the reason people are buying these knives at a premium is because of the rich heritage story of wool connecting the land to your kitchen.

So when you have people come over, whether you put a platter out, it’s very Australia, New Zealand style.

You obviously have your wool knife there.

It’s a beautiful story for all your friends.

And we actually on our website showcase where the wool is sourced from, what farms.

So that’s also connecting you back.

And I guess also fundamentally, you can see kind of the aesthetic, the wool in the product, which is without saying, you can immediately tell it’s not a normal knife.

And I know with the kite, you had a circular take back system.

Do you have the same thing with your knives as well?

And can you describe that?

Yeah, so fundamentally, one of our biggest competitive advantages against fiberglass is that our product is recyclable.

And one of the issues we face is that if it goes into a traditional recycling stream, it can be recycled, but it wool might start popping up in other products.

So I don’t know if that’s a bad thing or a good thing.

Maybe it’s a good thing.

But fundamentally, to ensure that no matter what, our product is safeguarded and sustainable, we have a factory in Hamilton.

If you finish with your product, you don’t want it anymore, it’s end of life.

You send it to us, we will grind up the material and reuse it.

Either if it is degraded to quite a bad point, we do what’s called, I guess it’s batch mixing, where you take maybe 50% recycled plastic with 50% virgin biodegradable polymer and mix it together.

And you even do product offering for the market.

Or if it’s in good state, you can literally just grind it up and reproduce a product.

We’ve done this before, where you produce the material, you put it into a kayak mold, the kayak for some reason or another hasn’t been produced perfectly.

So you literally put it into a grinder, grind it up, put it back into the system and produce the kayak again, but this time properly.

And it turns out, creating new biodegradable recyclable products is big business.

Our patent pro, Dr.

Hannah French, actually works in the space of sustainable patents.

And here’s what she’s noticing.

Growth areas for patents always tend to match where you see growth areas in industry generally.

So obviously, in recent years, sustainability has been a major focus globally, dealing with waste and climate change and those types of issues and the prominence of green technology.

So yes, there has been a corresponding increase in patenting in those areas.

And Hannah, you’ve dealt with a lot of inventors in your time, so what makes a good one?

What are you looking for?

I think inventors can come from a wide variety of backgrounds.

They can have a wide variety of skills.

So there’s a great diversity in inventors, I would say.

I think some common features might be that they always have an eye to improving something, those incremental changes.

What if we tried this?

What if we tried that?

What if we tweaked this a bit?

Could we get a better result?

So I think a real drive to optimize.

And I think in many cases, that sort of creative element as well.

They’re able to sort of think beyond something that’s obvious.

And one person who’s clearly thinking beyond something that’s obvious, Logan Williams.

You’ve created so many different products.

As an inventor, how does the patent system help you through this in particular?

Well, I think our company commercially has been through a really interesting journey.

I can tell you firsthand, trying to develop a manufacturing company during COVID was incredibly stressful, especially trying to convince companies that were fighting for survival to trial a new material was a really hard sell.

So it was really baptism by fire for me.

So fundamentally, we tried selling material and we did well.

We were making a decent profit, but the margins were really thin.

And that was great.

We were protected by the patent.

That’s really important.

Next, we started selling actual physical products, which we’re still currently doing, where we manufacture our products, sell them for retailers like Torpedo 7, like Ironclad Pans.

And then the third and final stage, which I think is the future of the company, because I’m no knife salesman or kayak salesman, I believe the core premise and importance of our patent is the ability to license the material.

So go to a large corporation and say, we have this innovative, amazing product.

We would like to give you exclusivity in the specific industry.

You can license the material, we’ll manufacture it for you.

We’ll send it to your factory.

You can produce the product and achieve a premium.

So that’s fundamentally how the patent will provide value for Shear Edge.

To what extent does the patent system empower the innovator?

I think it gives a really mighty tool to an everyday inventor entrepreneur to defend what is theirs.

In an age where we aren’t going to be able to distinguish between AI and humanity, now more than ever, we need a tool that can really safeguard and protect human intellectual property.

And I think patents are going to be incredibly important in that field.

I think by 2025, 99% of content on the internet will be AI generated.

So we really need to distinguish what intellectual property is and human intelligence.

And that’s the role patents have.

What we really need to safeguard here is human ingenuity, human creativity, the human essence, not to get too meta or philosophical here, but that notion of that spark, that eureka moment of human creativity where we can not only collate knowledge, but we can go that step beyond transcend collation and really create something truly novel and human.

I also think as well, adding to that, there is a human component to invention.

If you’re creating a product, whether it’s a knife, a kayak, and there’s gonna be human interaction, you need to tell that story.

You need to have an emotional connection with the customer with the product that you’re creating and the invention.

And in fact, it’s actually that connection to the New Zealand story, the story of wool, and also the story of sustainability, which is really a part of New Zealand’s rich history, isn’t it?

Wool is literally what built New Zealand as a country.

It was about 60% of our economy.

And it really is that story that people deeply care about and that connection to the land.

We’re surrounded by industrialization.

People want something in their homes that connects them to nature desperately.

If you’re in the middle of the city, you want something like a nice woollen blanket or even a woollen knife in your kitchen, just to remind you of nature.

Yeah, you pretend to be a capitalist, but I know you’re a softie at heart, Logan.

Well, I think you can be both.

I like to think that.

That’s right.

Yes, it’s not a binary thing, is it?

No, no.

I love that.

We’re reinventing the definition of capitalist.

It’s actually a compassionate capitalist.

How about that?

I think every human should be highly motivated to safeguard our natural space and environment.

I mean, it’s pretty remiss.

It doesn’t matter how much piles of money you have, if you’re Scrooge McDuck.

If the planet’s on fire, I don’t think it’s gonna be too helpful to you.

I don’t think it’ll just stoke the fire.

That was Logan Williams, Managing Director of Shear Edge and Dr.

Hannah French, Patent Attorney from AJ Park.

This podcast is brought to you by IPH, helping you turn your big ideas into big business.

I’m your host, Lisa Leong.